tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post4115351318902991116..comments2024-03-20T16:46:13.343-04:00Comments on Marly Youmans / The Palace at 2:00 a.m. / poems, stories, novels: Austen and transformationMarly Youmanshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-28253955410766849492016-04-23T08:39:30.509-04:002016-04-23T08:39:30.509-04:00I am always so satisfied when someone leaves a poe...I am always so satisfied when someone leaves a poem (or two) as explanation. Good cheer!Marly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-82914572403887144752016-04-23T00:14:53.001-04:002016-04-23T00:14:53.001-04:00i see i need to pay a bit more attention to my typ...i see i need to pay a bit more attention to my typing; the above comment is not saying exactly what i meant. maybe the trouble is i don't know enough to express an opinion. i've tried a number of times to read Jane, but never been successful; don't know why, really; maybe not knowing enough about the literary skeleton of such works is the problem. that, or not paying attention..Mudpuddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17194891656971454279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-57141465876068322772016-04-22T21:25:44.058-04:002016-04-22T21:25:44.058-04:00Well, perhaps you should write your own definition...Well, perhaps you should write your own definitions!Marly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-67107202161037209742016-04-22T18:51:15.159-04:002016-04-22T18:51:15.159-04:00tx for your trouble; appreciate it, but i can see...tx for your trouble; appreciate it, but i can see that both terms are probably used in not very precise ways; understandable, because that sort of situation is not very precise. i wonder what writerly rules govern which of them in which situation one is depicted wherever it's not the one one would want. yes, have to give that some thought...Mudpuddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17194891656971454279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-22779724457530878342016-04-22T16:10:43.126-04:002016-04-22T16:10:43.126-04:00Hmm, that's a Mudpuddle-muddle question. Not s...Hmm, that's a Mudpuddle-muddle question. Not sure I'll be good at answering.<br /><br />If you mean in a literary sense, as a rhetorical device, then surely irony runs back to the Greeks and drama, where the audience experiences dramatic irony when realizing a great deal more about a character's words than a character can know (at least at that point in a tale.) I think that Oedipus&#Marly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-81205954456580684882016-04-22T15:27:49.923-04:002016-04-22T15:27:49.923-04:00"Who me?""Who me?"Marly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-36958444949043487582016-04-22T15:04:44.518-04:002016-04-22T15:04:44.518-04:00what's the difference between irony and parado...what's the difference between irony and paradox?Mudpuddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17194891656971454279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-35422661270467878692016-04-22T15:00:54.559-04:002016-04-22T15:00:54.559-04:00see mr. mud blushing with index finger in cheek......see mr. mud blushing with index finger in cheek...Mudpuddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17194891656971454279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-20986190933198091872016-04-22T08:19:55.895-04:002016-04-22T08:19:55.895-04:00So how does all that related to what books are rea...So how does all that related to what books are read?<br /><br />Mudpuddle, you must have been raised in a sweeter way because you always seem a kindly sort! Marly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-19096961868018066172016-04-22T08:16:52.351-04:002016-04-22T08:16:52.351-04:00I'd probably like to hear her characters talk ...I'd probably like to hear her characters talk inside any sort of skeleton, as that's one of my favorite things about her, along with the colliding of various complex levels of knowing and knowingness on the part of characters. Yes, I like that sort of artful twist and moebius band shape where, as you say, Darcy is felled "by qualities he imagine he himself possessed." That'sMarly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-3131671975852491762016-04-22T03:21:48.792-04:002016-04-22T03:21:48.792-04:00JA wrote about romance because there was little el...JA wrote about romance because there was little else on the immediate horizon and science-fiction hadn't yet been invented. She was also a comedy-of-manners novelist who needed characters to animate that abstraction. The "facts" of her plots are remarkably similar and I suspect that didn't worry her in the slightest; all she needed was a plausible skeleton (sorry about the mixedRoderick Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16828395545197001637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-49299232382232220402016-04-22T00:20:26.140-04:002016-04-22T00:20:26.140-04:00yes: the whole gamut of relating to peers, establ...yes: the whole gamut of relating to peers, establishing territory, defense, domination, leadership (also known as intimidation), competition, killer instincts (aka corporate values); rarely, more positive traits, cooperation, kindness, understanding, helpfulness (the latter are quite rare). all ingrained before the age of six. or even younger... creating your average, "balanced" Mudpuddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17194891656971454279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-74302279124377556922016-04-21T20:02:14.516-04:002016-04-21T20:02:14.516-04:00I suppose--guess I'm just tired of some of the...I suppose--guess I'm just tired of some of the fashionable modes of being. Fogeydom is with me!Marly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-69755018074656788762016-04-21T20:01:05.743-04:002016-04-21T20:01:05.743-04:00Evidently there's a big argument about who sai...Evidently there's a big argument about who said it, and it's a bit like something from Proverbs (and something from Lenin, for that matter!)<br /><br />I expect boy socialization does insist on not liking pink jackets and too much relationship chat, but is there more?Marly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-73769374234906508502016-04-21T20:00:21.611-04:002016-04-21T20:00:21.611-04:00Oh, maybe they call it that less often, but I thin...Oh, maybe they call it that less often, but I think it's still what they're trying to work out. Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14523194846272870013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-24515005762871893812016-04-21T18:58:29.928-04:002016-04-21T18:58:29.928-04:00ummm; socialization and cultural brain-washing an...ummm; socialization and cultural brain-washing and money. which jesuit priest was it that said, "give me a child under six years of age and he's mine forever". cynical, but true in large measure, i think...Mudpuddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17194891656971454279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-13173913872969160622016-04-21T15:34:16.713-04:002016-04-21T15:34:16.713-04:00I can't say that I've read Regency romance...I can't say that I've read Regency romances, although last year I did read (because Ellen Kushner kept talking about it and won me over) Heyer's "The Convenient Marriage" (Georgian, I think, but evidently similar in mode to her Regency books.) And that one, to me, felt kindred to Wodehouse's Edwardian tales--full of the right period stuff and sharp slang but more a kind Marly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-49678356657948814032016-04-21T14:51:34.050-04:002016-04-21T14:51:34.050-04:00So what is your explanation of historical romance,...So what is your explanation of historical romance, much of which is set in Regency England?<br /><br />I agree that Austen is doing something different, although I'm not sure if the love story/marriage plot is equal to and running in tandem with her wider objectives or is simply the vehicle for exploring them. <br /><br />I think for me the main differences are the genre romance's intenseUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14187860051812060040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-41250630635338533092016-04-21T14:51:13.149-04:002016-04-21T14:51:13.149-04:00So what is your explanation of historical romance,...So what is your explanation of historical romance, much of which is set in Regency England?<br /><br />I agree that Austen is doing something different, although I'm not sure if the love story/marriage plot is equal to and running in tandem with her wider objectives or is simply the vehicle for exploring them. <br /><br />I think for me the main differences are the genre romance's intenseUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14187860051812060040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-82924561162785437892016-04-21T14:17:16.296-04:002016-04-21T14:17:16.296-04:00Yes, I liked your post.
I can't see how they ...Yes, I liked your post.<br /><br />I can't see how they could possibly be trying to do the same thing as Austen--we barely live in the same world as genteel Englishwomen of that era! What other choice did they have? And what is it that romance novelists are trying to achieve now? I suppose you will tell us, along the way!<br /><br />I hate to think that people read Austen solely for the Marly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-5927851509873246462016-04-21T14:12:44.188-04:002016-04-21T14:12:44.188-04:00I don't know. The mainstream has changed so mu...I don't know. The mainstream has changed so much. We have so many thinkers who don't believe in goodness or in right or wrong. How to live well and do right no longer seems a focus for young men and women.Marly Youmanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02377938366750387442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-30217433050037760552016-04-21T12:54:34.716-04:002016-04-21T12:54:34.716-04:00Very interesting response! I agree with you especi...Very interesting response! I agree with you especially about the different scope of Austen's questions and answers about marriage. (You will have seen from my post that my own answer to that question is also "no.") I am trying to think about how (else) to differentiate her novels from today's popular romance novels without simply dismissing the latter as poor or "facile&Rohan Maitzenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12111722115617352412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11539948.post-35001096698046587852016-04-21T11:51:15.031-04:002016-04-21T11:51:15.031-04:00Yes indeed! But I would say that all romance novel...Yes indeed! But I would say that all romance novels are attempting the same: it's just that most of their answers are prefab and facile. How do you live? If you find the right person, will he help you through the gates into a new world? I think those are the perennial questions of the romance novel. Austen just gives better answers than most.<br />Dalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14523194846272870013noreply@blogger.com